Canvas anoraks are great for the top, but what about for the poor legs?

[northwoodsmike]

So, here is a clothing question I haven't seen addressed yet:

When it's really cold and/or blowing hard, I love to cinch my anorak atop my warm woolens. On my legs, I usually wear a pair of midweight long underwear bottoms with a pair of thick wool pants over them. The anorak provides some decent coverage for the upper thighs, and my mukluks (preferred trail footwear) keep me covered to mid-calf.

Before wising up, I traveled with full-side zip Gore-Tex pants that I would pull over when it was really cold and windy. One benefit was that while working hard, I could unzip from waist to knee to dump excess heat.

However, I have been embracing more and more the gospel of wool and cotton outerwear, especially after (despite my best efforts) getting the inevitable campfire spark holes in my pricey wind pants. They're not the best for the winter, clearly, but I'd still love to have 'em intact for summer canoe trips and the like. Besides, they're not really cut large enough to fit comfortably over a thick layer of wool on the legs.

So what I'd really like to know is, what do folks find to work well for layering atop long johns and wool pants when it's really cold and/or windy and that extra layer of protection is needed?

*Hmm*  I kinda wish someone like Kevin at ECW made a canvas analogue to his bomber anoraks. Heavy duty full-side zips would be fantastic so they could go on and off without having to strip off skis/snowshoes, but I know Kevin and others eschew zippers for winter gear that is supposed to be nuke-proof. Anybody know of such a garment?

What I'm thinking of doing for next winter is buying a pair of cotton duck quilt-lined Carhartt bibs. The duck by itself isn't 100% windproof, of course, but when you figure in the double front panels and the quilt lining behind it all, I figure they'd add a good, solid layer of warmth for those priceless days when it's pushing -30 and the wind's a-howling. Also, they have side zips that go up to the waist for easy on/off, and the bibs can be bought large enough to fit over all the other layers without becoming ridiculous. Fire and abrasion resistance would be great, too. I figure they'd be a bit bulky when packed up in the sled, but they wouldn't weigh much...

Anyhow, some quilted Carhartt bibs are what I think I might need to pick up for next year's winter forays. But I'm also kind of a cheapskate, and I'm reluctant to shell out $100-120 bucks if there's another way.

Send your bright ideas my way! Thanks for reading my tome of a post.

peace,
mike

[Clovishunter]

I can't speak for all but this is one method I use quite frequently and I have not been cold at all while wearing this system. I have a pair of old military artic pants not the new stuff old like 1970's era they are basically the M-65 field coat for your legs. they have a synthetic liner that buttons in and can be taken out easily enough. I wear these with a host of long underwear ranging from light to heavy weight and i adjust for weather conditions at the time. I've used them in all kinds of conditions dry to wet and they work the way I need them to, they only thing i wear on the outside of them is EMS system3 single layer supplex and that is only in the case of wet weather to keep them from getting wet of course. they are large enough for mutiple layers and they do not gather or get extremely tight, as opposed to newer gear which is essentially made for runway models and fashion as opposed to function. Don't get me wrong i have my share of high tech gear, I actually spend alot of time on the back of a dogsled so i've gone through North face, Mountain hardwear, and EMS gear from top to bottom, but for the most I come back to older stlyes of things cause they just work better. And by the way as to Carharts any money you spend is worth it weather bibs or not the quick fix is the insulated but my expierience is you'll get tired real quick, i would suggest unlined and then use your own layers underneath just my two cents of course. Hope this helps a little if I get the chance I will post the model # of this item Cheers
Brian

[pablo]

The Canadian military made a great pair of nylon windpants.  They have oversize buttons, suspender buttons, cargo pockets, and reach-through thigh pockets (which is a great idea... you can fish stuff out of your wool pants pockets).  The have a button closure around each ankle as well.

Great pants.  Cheap, durable, dry quickly, and reasonably windproof.  Besides, they come in that most fashionable of colors... green

[lost_patrol]

Are you sure you really need that extra layer for your legs? 

Most of the time, on the upper body I wear a polyester longsleeve t-shirt with one or more military surplus wool shirts over it (depending on temperature) and my cotton anorak over that.  On the legs, I normally wear light or mid-weight polyester longjohns, with canvas outer pants.  I have and sometimes wear wool pants, but only in when it's very cold.  In milder weather (which I define as -20 or higher) I overheat.  And I have mil surplus wind pants that I carry with me, but I've never needed to actually put them on.

[lost_patrol]

The Canadian military made a great pair of nylon windpants.  They have oversize buttons, suspender buttons, cargo pockets, and reach-through thigh pockets (which is a great idea... you can fish stuff out of your wool pants pockets).  The have a button closure around each ankle as well.

Great pants.  Cheap, durable, dry quickly, and reasonably windproof.  Besides, they come in that most fashionable of colors... green

Are you sure they're nylon?  I haven't read the label in mine, but my guess would be a tightly woven poly/cotton blend.  I hope so, because sooner or later I'll find myself wearing them near a fire.

And yeah, that fashionable green.  Just the thing to combine with some of my other mil surplus kit, all of which is in different shades of green.  I suppose as long as it all has stannag numbers, it's all acceptable.

[Pawistik]

For my legs I have a pair of 1951 army surplus wool pants, probably about a mid-weight, that I use as my outer layer. Under that I normally wear long underwear, and that is comfy across a borad range of temperatures. When it was really cold the other morning, I added a pair of heavy-weight fleece pants that fit like long undies and so fit underneath my large and loose-fitting wool pants. I took off the fleece before setting out on the trail in the morning, they were used just for in camp while it was cold and while I was not under a high degree of exertion. Had it been really windy, I might have left them on.

If all you want is a wind shell, you can buy wind/rain pants for about $50 with full zips. I've used mine in the very cold and they worked well, but have abandoned them since moving to wool. They are inexpensive enough that a burn hole is not a big deal. They do tend to be very noisy in the very cold though.

Cheers,
Bryan

[jaunty]

I have a pair of Royal Navy double-ventile overpants.  So far, I've only used them as cold-weather rain pants, but they're excellent wind protection and very breathable.  If you don't need waterproofness you could save weight by going with single ventile.  Being 100% cotton they should be fine around fires.  


Correction:  The Royal Navy trousers only have two layers of ventile in the knees and seat. 

[cousin Pete]

Hello NorthwoodsMike:  I wear merino wool longjohns with heavy wool pants overtop.  I have never needed wind protection over them.  If necessary I would wear the Canadian Armed Forces wind pants.  They are a cotton/nylon combination.   

Take care,
Cousin Pete

[Prewar70]

Kevin must have stopped making his pants.  I have a pair, made from the same canvas as the anorak, full zip, big thigh pockets, built in nylon belt.  They're absolutely great.  I also have some made by Wintergreen up in Ely, full zip, nylon, and ver well constructed.

[Kevinkinney]

No, Kevin ran out of fabric.

Pants will return in time. The sad thing is that ours have a 50/50 success ration. We're right on the verge of wet winters these days, so our user report either complete success, or being frozen to their boots with armored calves. Cotton tops, even when wet, seem to suffer fewer problems with freezing than pants. if I could breed a perfect winter pant, the lower 1/3 would be silicone impregnated Nomex, shifting to cotton as they go up your legs.

<Sigh>

Back to the drawing board.

Kevin

[pablo]

Are my Canadian windpants nylon?  Definitely.  They haven't a detectable trace of cotton in them...  As far as being around fires...  Just gotta be careful with them...

[jaunty]

Are my Canadian windpants nylon?  Definitely.  They haven't a detectable trace of cotton in them...  As far as being around fires...  Just gotta be careful with them...

Is that a disadvantage?  Definitely. 

[pablo]

Regarding nylon windpants... (or anything made from all-nylon for that matter)... it all boils down to pros and cons.  Cotton poplin windpants can still be damaged by fire if one is careless.  They also take longer to dry than nylon does.  However, they breath better, and are lighter.  The Canadian nylon windpants though, are very tough, dry quickly, and have never (in the 13 years I've owned them) been damaged by fires or stoves.  I've spent many nights around stoves and open fires though, so the chance has certainly been there.  I've just not allowed it to happen (yet )

This brings up an important point:  We can spend hours dwelling on what kind of equipment to bring, but what it often boils down to is HOW we use that gear, not WHAT we're using (as my brother told me when I was a downcast junior high school drummer wishing I could afford a fancy drumset:  "some guys play it, and some guys polish it"...  Certainly some gear is downright foolish to attempt to use, but as long as the overall balance sheet is positive, you're good to go.  just know the limitations of what you're using and act appropriately.  This approach demolishes the foolish, oft-quoted line "cotton kills".  A mentor of mine added to that saying that, "cotton doesn't kill... foolish, inappropriate use of cotton kills..."

[jaunty]

Getting back to the topic of the original post, northwoodsmike, you might wish to try the Swedish snow camo overtrousers.  Many on this site use the anoraks and jackets as wind gear; the overtrousers are of the same windproof cotton fabric, and they're available quite cheaply -- try searching for "swedish snow camo" on eBay, for example.  

[I once just searched for "swedish snow" and turned up a guy who was actually auctioning a jar of Swedish snow.  If it had been this winter, I might have been tempted to take him up on it.] 

I can also second the comments on the M-1951 woolen field trousers.  At least if you're in the bottom half of a size range (the mediums cover waist sizes from 31 to 35 inches, for example), you'll have plenty of room for lower layers, and the wool serge fabric seems very windproof.  

[scoutergriz]

Pablo; Are you positive your pants are nylon? Mine ( trousers-extreme weather-windproof) are 65/35 fire retardent poly/cotton (as is most of the cold-weather gear). there's no label to say so, but I got mine direct from the CF supply depot in London and that's what the bag said