Help needed to make Sleeping Bag decision

[Heikki Lunta]

My Wife and I are newbees and are going to take advantage of "end of season sale prices"
We are buying new winter rated sleeping bags. We live in northern Wisconsin and will use these bags (we hope) for the next twenty years.
We will be hot tenting around home and in Da UP of Michigan, The Gunflint area of Minnesota, and the Boundary Waters & Quetico.
We have read all the posts, but we need to ask.
If you were buying again, would you buy bags for -40 or would -20 work the majority of trips. We are thinking most of the time, the nightime temps are in the 10 to -15 F
range. We could wear clothes or bring extra bags along if cold -30 to -40 was expected
We do plan to also buy bivy bags for the new bags.
We are afraid we might be too hot more than we will be cold.
Does anybody want to help us decide?

[cousin Pete]

Hello Heikki:  Are you Finnish?  My dad is Finnish.  I have a bag rated to -30 deg Celcius.  I just got into hot tenting this year.  I used two ground mats underneath by  bag and I slept in thin long wool underwear.  For the upper body, I slept with a thin wool shirt and a thin fleece shirt.  I was chilly at times.  For future trips I'll be wearing fleece long underwear as well an extra layer for the upper body.  In hindsight, I would have picked up a -40 bag if it was only $100.00-$150.00 more money.  In warmer temps I would leave the zipper open as need be.  The bag I have was a great combination for price and quality.  Given that you are willing to wear extra clothing if need be or bring an extra bag, as well as purchasing bivy sacks, then you probably don't need a -40 F bag.  I would wait to get other people's opinions; especially HOOP's view point.   

Take care,
Peter Myyry

[Heikki Lunta]

Thanks Cousin Pete
We hope to hear from other people also. Its a good time to upgrade, lots of sales going on. We are on the fence on this. We have a couple big & thick Therm-A-Rests and might pick up a couple of their Ridge Rest pads. Also I like the Bivy idea of Hoops. But we just can't be sure....................would apreciate help
No Finn blood, just a wannabe. Love the winter and the sauna and the culture.   

[Mike B.]

I have a super down bag from feathered friends.  It might be -30 to -40f.  I love the bag, but if I was starting over I would invest that same money in two lighter bags for more versatility for the rest of the year.
Mike B.

[Heikki Lunta]

Thanks Mike B
Well we camp all year. The rest of the year we have covered with other bags. Its just our winter hot tent camping that we are buying for. We are hoping to do the right thing with some help from the Pro's.

Thanks
Bernie

[wooley]

I certainly DREAM of a goose down -40 bag ( and quite a few other things..like a hot tent and a stove ) but as I am rather cheap, I make do with a 2-bag system and dedicated cold weather sleep kit. I have an MEC Hybrid -12 bag and a Woods -17 bag. These, combined with a homemade fleece liner and heavyweight polypro undies, I have been rather comfy in all but the deepest cold. (when in those conditions, my extra clothing and my down parka get me through the night )

I also sleep on top of a closed-cell RidgeRest and a camp sized ThermaRest. And under THAT, I also lay my lounger style Crazy Creek chair which is also closed cell.

I like the versatility of 2 bags. As I trek mostly in the near-north of Southern Ontario , I encounter a wide variety of weather conditions and like being able to adjust my "system" as required. I find it easy to pack the additional kit so I will be cozy.

My thoughts;
-if you expect deep cold for the bulk of your trekking, a dedicated -40 bag is a good investment
-if you will be trekking in varied conditions with a large swing in ambient temps, I recommend a 2 bag system

MIKE

[into the wind]

Hank Snow, you must be into that Finnish Reggae!
I have a -40 bag and love it. I camp with guys who use cooler bags and they seem to do fine. Good fleece liners can make a big difference. Part of the figuring is to know if you sleep cold or hot. Seems to me women often like a warmer bag. What ever you buy you can make work.

[HOOP]

Hi Heikki Lunta,

I assume you have read through the "Equipment" / "Sleeping System" section in the blue tabs above?   I admit that it is biased towards my system, but since I was writing it....

There is no one sleeping system that is optimal.  Maybe I could offer some ideas on advantages and disadvantages of my system of a -40 down bag + oversized bivy.   (My standard pad system is either thermarest on top of spruce and balsam boughs, or without boughs a thermarest on top of a Z-rest on a reflector blanket).  (temps listed in Celsius):

Advantages: 
Packs smaller and lighter than two bags;
Does not suffer any loss of loft.
Easy to get in and out of, since there is just one zipper (I leave the bivy zip open). 
Total piece of mind in deep cold.    I wear my day underclothes, and usually take one pair of socks off since my feet get too warm - not a bad problem to have!

Disadvantages:
Too hot when fully zipped for me when it is warmer than -10C.    I leave it zipped partially open to vent heat, but the bivy keeps a bubble of warm air in, so I can manage.   Even at -15C its partially open.  In a heat wave approaching -5C to 0C (32F), it is too hot and I have trouble keeping cool, which interrupts my sleep.   Its then I wish I had a cooler bag.  I don't use the bivy, but then the bag is susceptible to wetting from snow, and also dirt.  I plan to never wash the goose down bag (so far so good after about 8 years), unless absolutely necessary.  It should stay very clean due to the use of the bivy plus sleeping clothes.   So I tend to always use the bivy, which holds more heat in when its mild. 

Problem/Challenge:   Where I travel, it usually gets down to -15C to -20C in normal winter weather, and at any time it can easily get down to -30C.  Colder than -30C happens a few nights per year, usually over 2 weeks, and I have been in the middle of that on two trips, getting to -44.    But where I want to expand my travels further north, I expect to have more nights colder than -30C.   Therefore a -20C bag is going to be marginal in normal weather, and on most trips with a -20C bag I think I would need to carry an over bag because it can easily get colder than -20C at night.  That means more bulk, weight, and more hassle getting in and out.    A -30C bag might be better as a single bag, but it will still likely be too hot in the meltdown temps, just like a -40.    -30C is not good enough for the deep cold, which means another bag.

You are damned if you do, damned if you don't.   I also must have a roomy bag for thrashing and bending my legs, and a roomier cut means that an overbag has more potential to crush loft.   The perfect versatile system might be a -20C bag, with a very loose fitting barrel bag (have to obviously match zipper sides), and the over-sized bivy.   I have heard good things about the MEC Cygnet as an overbag.   But there will always be some crushing of loft of the inner bag.

Frost:  I usually can either dry it in the sun, or the hot tent.   I have never had the need for a vapor barrier.  But if I ever do a long cold camp in deep cold and stormy cloudy weather (like 2-3 weeks plus), then I might consider it.   If using a 2-bag system there is an advantage for frost management because the outer bag gets the frost, which is not a big deal for insulation.   However, I find that my bivy can really help to keep the frost on the outside fabric instead of the inside.   My Mountain Hardware bag has its proprietary "conduit" fabric on the outside, which lets the frost pass through, but has really good water repellency properties, so it tends to shed the frost nicely where the bag contacts the bivy. and the frost is coating the conduit fabric.

In guaranteed mild temps like 0C to -8C, I have tripped with a down summer bag I have rated at -7C.  It worked fine inside my bivy.  I figure I can take that to -10C no problem.  So I do have a comfortable alternative to the -40 bag for short trips where I know it will be very mild. 

I recommend down anyways, but if you go with a 2-bag system, I would definitely suggest down for the compressibility and volume savings.  When packing a sled, bulk matters.   I have destroyed older fiberfill bags in only a couple years.  It mats up and separates.   I switched to high end expensive down years ago for summer and winter and never looked back.  They retain their loft wonderfully and in my opinion save you money in the long run. 

Also make sure its longer than you are, so you can pop food down at the feet to thaw it for next day if need be, or leave a pair of thick socks to dry, or maybe boot liners.  Bags usually come in short, regular and long. 

Best of luck with your choice.   Let us know what you ended up with.   

[HOOP]

The oversized bivy I use is the Integral Designs "Bugaboo" model, which to my knowledge is the largest bivy on the market without the extra hoops and micro-tent features.   Models change, so I can't vouch for their latest, but my Bugaboo is roomy enough to never compress my lofty -40 goose down bag.   No compression is essential.   Yes expensive.  But I figure mine will last 20 years or so.

http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_detail.cfm?id=694&CFID=1673274&CFTOKEN=39185779



The top center entry is a bit of a hassle.   Takes some getting used to.  But its kinda neat because I can unzip the sleeping bag inside, but I am still wrapped by the bivy, so its a versatile steam venting system.    I can leave my arm and shoulder outside the bag, but inside the bivy, for those warm nights. 

[wilderness gal]

Hi,

I have a -18 down bag and really enjoy it for the warmth it provides (I sleep cold) and the lightness when carrying it.  I combine this with an MEC overbag and a vapour barrier liner in the winter months.  Down is wonderful for warmth as long as it is dry.  The vapour barrier liner is great because it keeps moisture from entering the bag from me and really does add warmth.  The overbag keeps condensation off the bag from breathing and doubles as a summer bag.  I also carry the vapour barrier liner when hiking as part of my survival gear.  It would be great to have if out unexpectedly overnight and is very light.  I try to do double duty with most of my equipment, it is easier with some stuff than others though.  I only cold camp so never have to worry about being too warm. My sleeping attire is a sleep hood, light gloves, fleece pants and sweater and also two pairs of wool socks.

Jacqueline

[ianhj]

Thought I would throw my two bob's worth in, I'm new to winter camping but have camped in Europe all my life, when looking for a bag over here (Nova Scotia) I settled on the MEC Thor wind stopper -30 with the idea that you should always prepare for the unexpected and get the warmest bag you can, it's much easier to vent excess heat than it is to produce heat if your already shivering in a lower rated bag. It's something you need to fine tune for yourself everyone sleeps differently hotter or colder, what you wear within the bag will help you fine tune.
On my last trip it was  -15c most nights and all I wore in the bag was a merino vest and lj's, venting was achieved by opening the bag slightly.

[dks]

A few years ago I bought a North Face Darkstar bag rated for -40. In my opinion, it's always better to warmer than colder for winter sleeping/camping. I've only been "warm" once and most of the time it's been on the cool side. I don't use a bivy or overbag though, so a lower rated bag may be suitable, but, when it gets cold I want the warmest I can get. I sleep in long johns, wool base layer and socks with a silk liner (MEC) for the sleeping bag. I would say get the warmer bag.

[FRANZENRP]

I was in the process this past winter of maybe exiting from my two bag system, and going with one down bag. I also was looking at what temp. bag I should go with between a - 20 or - 40. All my winter travels are in the BWCA so temps can easily range from zero to -40. I tried Mountain Hardwear, Western Mountaineering, and Marmot bags. I'm a larger person and the best fitting bag for me was Marmot, and I would definitely go with a -40 bag. I personally would want to error on the side of being to warm. Its easy enough to vent your bag if your warm. The drawback of course this bag is only good for cold winter camping. 

At the end of the day I couldn't part with my two bag system A Big Agnes 15 degree down inside a synthetic -20 degree Elk park. I use a closed cell foam with a Hinman pad on top for my ground mattress . The biggest reason I like this system is the room I have inside, I need to be able to move, twist , and turn. This system ables me to do this, with some extra room for cloths. A couple trips this winter temps were down to -34, and I was nice and toasty maybe a little to warm. I like sleeping with a set of smartwools long johns on, and this year used a Finbar headwear on for the first time and will give a positive thumbs up for Finbar.

[Soledad]

For what its worth I bought a WM Puma -25f during a 20% sale earlier this year.  It saved me space and weight from my two sleeping bag system that I was using. Since it didn't really get cold this winter in Minnesota, I only used it around the -5f degree mark, but  I was surprised at how comfortable I was when temps were in the +20's the last time I used it.  I thought I would be way too warm, but by keeping the zipper open I slept very well.  I am always amazed at the loft in that bag, 9" on top!

[Heikki Lunta]

Thanks, everybody for sharing all your experiences. This is such a wonderful site for those of us who have found and embraced this awesome season to be outside. All the gear required to make our trips safe and comfortable is a big investment and it is such a privilege to be able to use this media to share our ideas.

We have made the decision, we chose the Marmot cwm eq -40 down bags. Picked them up on sale for $489. We are going with Hoops system. Using our old thick Thermarest on top of Ridgerest pads and the Bugaboo bivy bag. That will be our rig for winter trips. During to transition times on either end, we have some Big Agnes Lost Ranger 15 degree bags we will use with the bivy and extra pad system.

So now we are well bagged, and when we can pull the pin on this ugly four letter word called work. We will be in our tents more than under our house roof, You can bet on it.

Thanks again to every body that posted.